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ZMT zurich med tech

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  2. Sim4Life
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  4. Point sensor makes the simulation diverge?

Point sensor makes the simulation diverge?

Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved Simulations & Solvers
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  • SylvainS Offline
    SylvainS Offline
    Sylvain
    ZMT
    wrote on last edited by
    #4

    Your file explorer is probably hiding some file extensions (there is no file ending with _input, it must be _Input.log and the Explorer is trying to be clever....).

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    • S Offline
      S Offline
      Saya
      wrote on last edited by
      #5

      Files ending _input are text file. How I can attach it here?

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      • SylvainS Offline
        SylvainS Offline
        Sylvain
        ZMT
        wrote on last edited by
        #6

        Yes, that's correct: the log files are text files with a .log extension.
        To attach it here, click "Reply", then drag & drop the Input.log file into the compose message box.

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        • S Offline
          S Offline
          Saya
          wrote on last edited by
          #7

          I did it. But there an error pops up: "ERROR
          You do not have enough privileges for this action."

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          • SylvainS Offline
            SylvainS Offline
            Sylvain
            ZMT
            wrote on last edited by
            #8

            can you try again now?

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            • S Offline
              S Offline
              Saya
              wrote on last edited by
              #9

              There is still the same error.

              S 1 Reply Last reply
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              • SylvainS Offline
                SylvainS Offline
                Sylvain
                ZMT
                wrote on last edited by
                #10
                This post is deleted!
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                • S Saya

                  There is still the same error.

                  S Offline
                  S Offline
                  Saya
                  wrote on last edited by Saya
                  #11

                  d4c23252-c420-452b-8e1a-0493634e0234_Input.log

                  a032b830-ae83-46a3-98a5-5285f0f6478e_Input.log

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                  • SylvainS Offline
                    SylvainS Offline
                    Sylvain
                    ZMT
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #12

                    It is possible that both simulations are performing equally well (or equally bad...). One major difference is that the "Convergence" that you see in the task manager is computed differently: in one case it includes the edge sensors at the source and the overall field, in the other case it includes the edge sensors, the overall field, AND the point sensor. The latter is a bit "stricter" and it may detect divergence sooner (or rather "non-convergence", since the simulation has not actually diverged).

                    my suggestions:

                    • try running for more periods and/or use automatic convergence
                    • upgrade to Sim4Life 4.4
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                    • S Offline
                      S Offline
                      Saya
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #13

                      The first file is the tutorial "3.1.7 Generic MRI System and Lead Pass" which it converges. The second one is exactly the same as the first one, I just added a point sensor at the origin and it makes the simulation not converge.

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                      • S Saya

                        The first file is the tutorial "3.1.7 Generic MRI System and Lead Pass" which it converges. The second one is exactly the same as the first one, I just added a point sensor at the origin and it makes the simulation not converge.

                        S Offline
                        S Offline
                        Saya
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #14

                        I checked the plane wave simulation, tutorial " 3.3.4 Heating from a Standard Active Implantable Medical Device" with line sensor which is attached.

                        427eb6a5-2266-47f8-9ef2-b541d6981478_Input.log

                        b03661b0-9635-4ff8-93fa-7b9e220f6b89_Input.log

                        And it diverges too.

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                        • S Offline
                          S Offline
                          Saya
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #15

                          How I can use automatic convergence?

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                          • SylvainS Offline
                            SylvainS Offline
                            Sylvain
                            ZMT
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #16

                            None of the simulations you have shown so far truly "diverge". They all finished successfully, as indicated at the end of those log files.
                            Note that this does not mean that the simulations "converged", nor that the results are correct.

                            In principle, simulations stop when one of the following happens:

                            • the excitation signal was sustained for the desired amount of time (you can see what your current settings are by clicking Source Signal button in the ribbon)
                            • the simulation diverges (the numerical scheme becomes unstable and values go to infinity)
                            • the solver returns an error (because of a license issue, incompatible hardware, no more space on hard drive, out of RAM, bug, etc...)
                            • the solver detects that the simulation converged

                            Now the question is, what do you think happened in your examples?

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                            • S Offline
                              S Offline
                              Saya
                              wrote on last edited by Saya
                              #17

                              Actually in the simulation I sent you, the convergence in the task manager goes up instead of going down. You mean if that happens, it does not mean the simulation does not converge?

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                              • SylvainS Offline
                                SylvainS Offline
                                Sylvain
                                ZMT
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #18

                                Convergence, as plotted in the task manager, is computed as a rate of change of the quantities measured by the sensors:

                                • when that number goes up, it means the simulation has not converged (yet?)
                                • when it goes towards infinity exponentially fast, the simulation has diverged
                                • when it goes below a given threshold (-50dB is the default setting), the simulation is said to have converged

                                Note (once again), that "convergence" depends on the sensors that have been set in the simulations, so adding a point sensor affects the "convergence" value reported in the task manager even if nothing else changes. For example, the rate-of-change of the field values reported by a point sensor placed far away from a source might go up when the traveling wave generated by the source reaches the point sensor.

                                To answer your question specifically: I don't know, because I can't see what you are doing. But try running the simulation for a longer time, then you'll know whether the simulation converges or diverges.

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                                • S Offline
                                  S Offline
                                  Saya
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #19

                                  Thanks for your help.

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