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ZMT zurich med tech

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  4. Point sensor makes the simulation diverge?

Point sensor makes the simulation diverge?

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  • S Offline
    S Offline
    Saya
    wrote on last edited by
    #1

    Hello,

    I added a point sensor to my simulation and it does not converge anymore (the convergence in the task manager goes up)? What might be the reason and how it could be fixed?

    Thanks.

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    • SylvainS Offline
      SylvainS Offline
      Sylvain
      ZMT
      wrote on last edited by
      #2

      Hello Saya, can you please try to attach the log file from the solver? (it is a file ending in _Input.log in the Results folder of your project).

      This would contain information about the type of simulation, simulation settings, grid settings, hardware settings, warning messages, error messages, etc... all of which are necessary to be able to provide you with a helpful answer.

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      • S Offline
        S Offline
        Saya
        wrote on last edited by
        #3

        Hello,
        There is no file ending in _input.log, but there is files ending just _input and _input.h5? Do they work?

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        • SylvainS Offline
          SylvainS Offline
          Sylvain
          ZMT
          wrote on last edited by
          #4

          Your file explorer is probably hiding some file extensions (there is no file ending with _input, it must be _Input.log and the Explorer is trying to be clever....).

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          • S Offline
            S Offline
            Saya
            wrote on last edited by
            #5

            Files ending _input are text file. How I can attach it here?

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            • SylvainS Offline
              SylvainS Offline
              Sylvain
              ZMT
              wrote on last edited by
              #6

              Yes, that's correct: the log files are text files with a .log extension.
              To attach it here, click "Reply", then drag & drop the Input.log file into the compose message box.

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              • S Offline
                S Offline
                Saya
                wrote on last edited by
                #7

                I did it. But there an error pops up: "ERROR
                You do not have enough privileges for this action."

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                • SylvainS Offline
                  SylvainS Offline
                  Sylvain
                  ZMT
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #8

                  can you try again now?

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                  • S Offline
                    S Offline
                    Saya
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #9

                    There is still the same error.

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                    • SylvainS Offline
                      SylvainS Offline
                      Sylvain
                      ZMT
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #10
                      This post is deleted!
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                      • S Saya

                        There is still the same error.

                        S Offline
                        S Offline
                        Saya
                        wrote on last edited by Saya
                        #11

                        d4c23252-c420-452b-8e1a-0493634e0234_Input.log

                        a032b830-ae83-46a3-98a5-5285f0f6478e_Input.log

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                        • SylvainS Offline
                          SylvainS Offline
                          Sylvain
                          ZMT
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #12

                          It is possible that both simulations are performing equally well (or equally bad...). One major difference is that the "Convergence" that you see in the task manager is computed differently: in one case it includes the edge sensors at the source and the overall field, in the other case it includes the edge sensors, the overall field, AND the point sensor. The latter is a bit "stricter" and it may detect divergence sooner (or rather "non-convergence", since the simulation has not actually diverged).

                          my suggestions:

                          • try running for more periods and/or use automatic convergence
                          • upgrade to Sim4Life 4.4
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                          • S Offline
                            S Offline
                            Saya
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #13

                            The first file is the tutorial "3.1.7 Generic MRI System and Lead Pass" which it converges. The second one is exactly the same as the first one, I just added a point sensor at the origin and it makes the simulation not converge.

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                            • S Saya

                              The first file is the tutorial "3.1.7 Generic MRI System and Lead Pass" which it converges. The second one is exactly the same as the first one, I just added a point sensor at the origin and it makes the simulation not converge.

                              S Offline
                              S Offline
                              Saya
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #14

                              I checked the plane wave simulation, tutorial " 3.3.4 Heating from a Standard Active Implantable Medical Device" with line sensor which is attached.

                              427eb6a5-2266-47f8-9ef2-b541d6981478_Input.log

                              b03661b0-9635-4ff8-93fa-7b9e220f6b89_Input.log

                              And it diverges too.

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                              • S Offline
                                S Offline
                                Saya
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #15

                                How I can use automatic convergence?

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                                • SylvainS Offline
                                  SylvainS Offline
                                  Sylvain
                                  ZMT
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #16

                                  None of the simulations you have shown so far truly "diverge". They all finished successfully, as indicated at the end of those log files.
                                  Note that this does not mean that the simulations "converged", nor that the results are correct.

                                  In principle, simulations stop when one of the following happens:

                                  • the excitation signal was sustained for the desired amount of time (you can see what your current settings are by clicking Source Signal button in the ribbon)
                                  • the simulation diverges (the numerical scheme becomes unstable and values go to infinity)
                                  • the solver returns an error (because of a license issue, incompatible hardware, no more space on hard drive, out of RAM, bug, etc...)
                                  • the solver detects that the simulation converged

                                  Now the question is, what do you think happened in your examples?

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                                  • S Offline
                                    S Offline
                                    Saya
                                    wrote on last edited by Saya
                                    #17

                                    Actually in the simulation I sent you, the convergence in the task manager goes up instead of going down. You mean if that happens, it does not mean the simulation does not converge?

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                                    • SylvainS Offline
                                      SylvainS Offline
                                      Sylvain
                                      ZMT
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #18

                                      Convergence, as plotted in the task manager, is computed as a rate of change of the quantities measured by the sensors:

                                      • when that number goes up, it means the simulation has not converged (yet?)
                                      • when it goes towards infinity exponentially fast, the simulation has diverged
                                      • when it goes below a given threshold (-50dB is the default setting), the simulation is said to have converged

                                      Note (once again), that "convergence" depends on the sensors that have been set in the simulations, so adding a point sensor affects the "convergence" value reported in the task manager even if nothing else changes. For example, the rate-of-change of the field values reported by a point sensor placed far away from a source might go up when the traveling wave generated by the source reaches the point sensor.

                                      To answer your question specifically: I don't know, because I can't see what you are doing. But try running the simulation for a longer time, then you'll know whether the simulation converges or diverges.

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                                      • S Offline
                                        S Offline
                                        Saya
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #19

                                        Thanks for your help.

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